[2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :( :o :shock: :? 8) :lol: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :wink: :?: :idea: :| (o~o) :geek: :[] :geek2: :][>:=~+:

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by niellwyn » Sat May 24, 2014 6:06 am

The subversion of relationships and gender-steeped unintended consequences is precisely why I thought the comic was funny. As Lupk mentioned, the comic seems to shed light on the fact that Olive Oil merely serves as a foil for the relationship between Bluto and Popeye. Seen through a modern lens, that relationship serves as a constant test and validation for those character's male gender, a kind of playacting. But Bluto exemplified his chosen gender role by nature, whereas Popeye had to seek a prosthetic means for exemplifying his chosen gender role, i.e., spinach. I found humor in the irony that the very gender insecurity felt by Bluto and Popeye, which necessitated their constant role playing, directly jeopardized Popeye's gender expression.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by Lupk » Thu May 01, 2014 3:25 pm

I thought the joke was simply a subversion of the focus of the relationship's triangle (from Popeye and Olive) to Popeye and Bluto, as the comic apparently implies that Olive is just an excuse for the guys to get busy (notice Bluto loses interest in the girl when he doesn't get a reaction from Popeye). Also that whole "don't you dare look away, you drove me to this" is just an old movie drama trope.
The punchline in this case didn't appear to me as matching to the body of the comic.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by SB » Thu May 01, 2014 4:51 am

See the thing is... it's not about trans or cis people at all; the gender dysphoria, should you insist on reading that deeply into the situation presented, is purely a vehicle for the actual content of the comic. It's about contrasts. Popeye is a character most people are familiar with, with one of his most defining characteristics being his nearly archetypical manliness... The evident contrast between the cartoon (where spinach allows Popeye to win what he wants) and the comic (where spinach causes him to lose what he wants) forms the basis of the humor here. It's about telling a sad story, but having it be about a wacky light-hearted character, that one wouldn't expect... maybe Bugs Bunny chokes to death on his signature carrot, Wiley Coyote could kill the roadrunner and feel purposeless, or Pepe Le Pew gets given a restraining order. That's black comedy all the way, though whether or not you personally find that sort of thing amusing is, perhaps, a worthy discussion in its own right (though one that hasn't seen much light in this thread).

Should one truly feel the need to empathize with a goofy character in a one-shot comic, it doesn't seem farfetched to say that both trans and cis people would be able to feel Popeye's distress--a cis person might need to imagine their emotional state were they to begin changing like that, while a trans person might have a more immediate connection, but it's not as though it's a totally alien emotion for anybody. What makes the whole discussion of trans and cis ridiculous in this context is that the depth of the humor relies on the ability of the reader to empathize with Popeye to a certain extent... the more you feel his pain, the funnier it is that it's a silly children's cartoon which is making you feel that way.

It's really pretty clear that the comic displays no hint of judgement towards anyone, carries no criticism, and delivers no offense. It's not saying a man growing breasts is bad or wrong, it's merely saying that Popeye in particular doesn't like it... life has it that different people feel differently about situations, and merely establishing that a character feels a certain way does not implicitly carry offense. Should one choose to take issue with the comic, simply on the basis that the subject matter is even being broached, yes, that is being overly sensitive. It also seems as though it's trending towards overly sensitive behavior to try and put one's self in Popeye's shoes to the point where it becomes upsetting or distracting from the humor. It's just a comic, sheesh, simply because it touches tangentially on issues that you feel connected to doesn't mean you have to try and deeply connect with it. Just because a character's well known traits contrast with your own personality doesn't mean you need to get upset. Frankly, I think the most offensive part of the whole comic is the preemptive apology assuming that people would take it the wrong way... worse still, it's embarrassingly cliche that so many people then fulfilled those expectations.

In other words, your experience is not relevant here. It's not about you, it's not about what you've been through or how you feel. It's about making a funny joke, thas it and thas all. And I'm sure it's much, much funnier now that it's been excessively explained...

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by Edminster » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:20 pm

Ah, I see where I interpreted your post incorrectly! I was focussing far too hard on the cis bit and using an extreme of trans* experience (which is the one I am most familiar with) mostly because I figured you were one of those uhh... hrm I don't have a word for it but a similar concept is like a super fucking wealthy person complaining about how tax time sucks for them too because of how many accountants they have to pay to get all their money through loopholes.

I gladly cede the argument as I have been fighting entirely the wrong fight!

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by jake » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:48 pm

That doesn't really describe a lot of trans* experience, though. That just describes a narrative that was sold in the 90s, that transpeople were just one gender trapped in the body of the opposite gender, with female brains in male bodies or other stuff with questionable scientific backing.

Or in a more complex way (this is more of implications of what you're suggesting than what I assume is anything near your intent, which I don't know either but you don't seem like a jerk) what you're saying is that real transpeople are post-op and op aspiring individuals. All other people with all other gender presentations (non-binarists, agender, third gender, bigender, genderfluid, etc) are not part of this conversation, nor do they suffer any form of dysphoria as per this concept of it.

I'll reiterate, the pressure to conform to masculine and feminine gender roles are a significant and omnipresent feature of every single person in a gendered world's lives. It colors tons and tons of our individual and cultural behavior and is not something limited to a handful of people within a handful of people. Challenging these roles in any significant capacity often leads to social ostracization and alienation regardless of how uncomfortable an individual might feel in their bodies. What is this if not dysphoria? What is Pop-eye feeling, if not dysphoria? He's upset because he's failing to present perfectly as a man, instead demonstrating feminine features. I hugely doubt that he, or the character in this comic, would describe themselves as trans* though. He did just say he was a man. Is he lying? Do we know he's trans* better than he does? Is he no longer suffering dysphoria because he's not trans?

Anyway just some thoughts. This sort of conversation is always more complicated than the typical "well I'm from reddit/I'm from tumblr/we're going to call each other names now/this is praxis!" dance makes it seem.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by GUTCHUCKER » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:33 pm

I think Ed was saying that you can choose to follow conventions or not, but it's much harder to change your body's gender through surgery etc. and be okay with it.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by jake » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:21 pm

So cis people choose their gender but transfolk don't? I'm not sure I follow this logic here.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by Edminster » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:13 pm

jake wrote:It's worth noting that cis-people do deal with gender dysphoria all the time. The media is constantly barraging literally everyone with messages that they're not feminine/masculine enough and that they should buy this product or do this action to prove how feminine/masculine they are. No one actually feels like they conform to hegemonic masculinity/femininity and while cispeople can get a measure more respect from the average person as a member of their gender, it's a tenuous respect easily broken with a few small contradictions (she cut her hair and is wearing jeans?! What a dyke!) that have nothing to do with whether or not they would describe themselves as trans.
Yeeess, in the sense that people who slice a finger open while cooking feel the same pain as people who are stabbed. Both are caused by sharp blades piercing skin (and both are painful and the world would be better if it never happened!) but the scale is way off.

I use these two scenarios specifically because among cis there is a largely voluntary element to the scene and if you are secure in your own self-conception and recognise the lies being pushed by marketers and regressives you have an absurd amount of lee-way before you are punished socially, medically, or economically.

This is not so with trans* people as simply existing in the body you were born in is a daily punishment and the best you can get with simple self-acceptance is 'welp i am stuck in this shitpile of flesh i hate, better make the most of it'. To go farther and attempt actual happiness often requires extensive psychological counseling and radical surgery which itself is not a guarantee of a restored self-image as there is always a little voice in the back of your head that says you are simply mimicking the outer form as a surgical abomination.

*this isn't anything it just feels sloppy to leave an asterisk un-footnoted

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by jake » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:30 pm

It's worth noting that cis-people do deal with gender dysphoria all the time. The media is constantly barraging literally everyone with messages that they're not feminine/masculine enough and that they should buy this product or do this action to prove how feminine/masculine they are. No one actually feels like they conform to hegemonic masculinity/femininity and while cispeople can get a measure more respect from the average person as a member of their gender, it's a tenuous respect easily broken with a few small contradictions (she cut her hair and is wearing jeans?! What a dyke!) that have nothing to do with whether or not they would describe themselves as trans.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by GUTCHUCKER » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:32 pm

Toot toot!

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by Dryditch » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:42 pm

In all honesty, it is a bit of an over sensitive reaction to have to this comic. Popeye is supposed to be this figure of manliness and ruffianism in protection of his girlfriend. He's a character from a different Era, without the kind of cis/trans/gay awareness modernity has.

Having said the above, Popeye is distraught that he could be seen as something he is not. Hence:"I yam what I yam."

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by lunardreams » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:19 am

Trans guy here. I appreciated Zach's comment that no offense was meant. I also found the comic to be rather funny, in a very dark sort of way, as many of my favorite SMBC comics are. I also support others right to be upset or offended by the comic, since finding humor in personally horrific situations isn't something everyone can do (or are at a point to do so).

To the cis people who don't know what gender dysphoria is: It's horrific. It's also likely the best term for what Popeye is experiencing in the comic regarding his chest. Mine was thought to be severe depression for quite a while because I was too afraid of the reactions to my transitioning to take the steps I needed to in order to lessen my own suffering.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by TheAls » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:09 am

Kimra wrote: The fact is: No-one has the right to tell you reasons.
Aaand you're wrong. Anyone has the right to tell you virtually anything.

Unfortunately, it's on each individual to react to things in a manner that they think will best advance their personal beliefs and goals.

If your reaction to something you want people not to do is to tell them they "can't do it," then you've already failed at that particular effort. Because they did. And can. And will.

It's not about making people wrong; that only forces them to defend and reinforce their own beliefs. It's about inviting them to consider other ideas. And if they don't, well, that's their right too.

It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Social norms don't change overnight, and usually neither do individuals. Water the seed of doubt, but try to understand when it doesn't sprout immediately.

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by Peon » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:24 pm

This board is getting meta as fuck

Re: [2014-04-07] I yam what I yam

by GUTCHUCKER » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:08 pm

I regret making the shit comment. I don't really know why I said it, sorry.
As for everything else: okay, I see now.

Top