The US Govt shut down - from an ethical point of view

[HBS]

This looming shut down is awful.

A caregiver's duty, above all, should be the betterment of its responsibility. It is a rewarding occupation - for when you support another, help another, you flourish as well. It's a symbiotic relationship of compassion and mutual reward.

The government's duty, above all, should be the betterment of its nation. The people, the economy, and its world power standing are at risk when the government shuts down. The statistics and low-ball estimates of what will be lost by a shut down is staggering on multiple fronts. Worse, foreign countries that depend upon the nation are at risk as well. It's an embarrassment and a disaster.

Without its symbiote, the nation is more vulnerable than ever. Tensions are high; people are scared and angry. Although the imagery is cliche, please forgive me: What we have here is a powder keg and with a proper match things could go up. Above all else - this must not happen.

Every single person in this country is now forced under a heavy weight to carry. Greed must be monitored, people must come together, and honesty and compassion have to become America's mantra. Again, it is a cliche and potentially hopeless call but our need is great and it must be satisfied.

Do what you can and consider the other side. Please.

[Edminster]

i don't think anybody here really cares all that much, as the vast majority of us are not in america or dependent upon america for anything so maybe it's time for it to finally collapse under the weight of its jingoistic quasi-imperialism???


ps SciPhi is for debate not for pleading to an invisible crowd

[HBS]

In the name of the lost science alone, you should care. Government scientists that work for the US will be forced to abandon their research until the shut down is over. This will mess with a majority of their experiments and studies, making it no longer scientifically valid. They must fly scientists out of other countries that have government grants, fucking up research over there as well. And what about students that are abroad with government loans? They have until their next semester to fix the shut down, otherwise they won't have any money to continue their education. As bad as it is for university students, it is worse for masters and PHDs: If they don't have the funds and are forced home for too long, depending upon the nature of their research, could even be forced to start over. If that happens to anyone, it means they'd be further in debt and robbed of their time investment already if they want to continue.

This also bodes poorly for embassies, international exchange, and it is going to cause a whole lot of suffering in a country.

The US is also one of the largest importers in the world and without the government controlled inspectors of imported goods, which means foreign economies become slightly more at risk. Additionally, the limited number of employees that will be allowed to work for essential security measures around the world will cause extreme delays and potential dangers. (For example, TSA will be forced to temporarily cut their staff by over half. People who monitor for terrorism threats and the like also will be cut severely or forced to train military replacements for temporary relief of their stations. Sounds a little dangerous to me on an international scale.)

This is a call to compassion and it doesn't stop just inside the borders of the USA.


PS: Pfft. I made my case and I'm backing it up, aren't I? You disagree with my case and seem to be the one saying very little, not me. This can easily fit a debate format.

[Edminster]

n the name of the lost science alone, you should care.

and yet against all odds i don't

If that happens to anyone, it means they'd be further in debt and robbed of their time investment already if they want to continue.

good! make them angry about what they have lost so they will spend time forging knives to sink into the suppurating hide of the diseased beast that was once america so that we may no longer be beholden to ghouls in thrall to those with the deepest coinpurse

(For example, TSA will be forced to temporarily cut their staff by over half. People who monitor for terrorism threats and the like also will be cut severely or forced to train military replacements for temporary relief of their stations. Sounds a little dangerous to me on an international scale.)

strictly speaking this is an untruth, the head of each federal agency makes the call regarding just who is essential personnel and there are no set quotas; as washington is technically part of the federal government and as vince gray is therefore the head of the department via his mayorship he could declare every single one of his 25 000 or so employees to be essential personnel and the only consequence is a bunch of wizened crones tutting under their breath about how it's just not right that he's ignoring the spirit of the shutdown

[HBS]

and yet against all odds i don't

You're the one making this not a debate, not me. Don't care, don't post.

good! make them angry about what they have lost so they will spend time forging knives to sink into the suppurating hide of the diseased beast that was once america so that we may no longer be beholden to ghouls in thrall to those with the deepest coinpurse

Sorry - I don't speak troll. Dollars to donuts says that if this was occurring in your country, you'd be making a stink. I know you're all happy with this being the internet and you remaining anonymous, but you're being exceptionally callous.

strictly speaking this is an untruth, the head of each federal agency makes the call regarding just who is essential personnel and there are no set quotas; as washington is technically part of the federal government and as vince gray is therefore the head of the department via his mayorship he could declare every single one of his 25 000 or so employees to be essential personnel and the only consequence is a bunch of wizened crones tutting under their breath about how it's just not right that he's ignoring the spirit of the shutdown

Not at all. Although you can declare your entire staff as essential employees, you also have no means of paying them. The armed forces are all considered "essential" but they won't be given a single penny until the shut down is over. Furthermore, many government agencies CANNOT declare their entire department as essential staff. I've got enough buddies working in the TSA to know that they were NOT given the option of keeping the entire staff - they WERE told to cut a certain amount. I am almost 100% positive that the same can be said for most other areas. I know for a fact that the governing board that monitors and responds to chemical agent attacks (located at an army base in Baltimore MD) are only allowed to have SEVEN people on staff. Two to feed the animals for research, 2 security guards, and 3 schmucks to sit by a phone in case somewhere in the world there is an attack and a government needs medical advice. The normal staff: Hundreds of people.

Sounds fairly serious to me.

[Edminster]

oh shit sorry i thought you did want this to be a debate what with it being in the debate section my mistake let me move it for you!!!

[HBS]

oh shit sorry i thought you did want this to be a debate what with it being in the debate section my mistake let me move it for you!!!

Aaaaand congratulate yourself. This is a debate, this had a good discussion topic, you came and trolled it and then moved it here. Thanks for being a prick and for showing me that there's no point in posting on this forum. You've set a new record for scaring off new members and making sure there's no intelligent posts.

[Edminster]

It wasn't a debate until I made it one, that was the entire point of my shitposting. As an aside if you're that much of a thin-skinned bitch that you run home crying because a mean person on the internet moved your topic then make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

Now to clear up some misconceptions you've picked up along the way:
I am not a non-american poster; I currently live on the outskirts of D.C. and am very concerned about what may happen in fewer than twelve hours if a compromise cannot be reached.

With the opening post as it was, there was no discussion topic; all that is in that post is a plea to an audience with no conversational hooks.

I will grant that I am a colossal asshole, although I am one purely out of love for this forum.

Finally, I have not in fact set a new record in scaring someone off; although it would be interesting if I had.

[Lethal Interjection]

Sorry - I don't speak troll.

If that is the way trolls speak, I will gladly welcome them with open arms into this forum.


The whole situation is difficult. I can't believe it has gotten this far, but there are a lot of factors to weigh, and I can't imagine it is an easy situation for anyone. I'd imagine they are doing everything they can to solve it. Because, frankly, I think it will mean some quick endings to a number of political careers (by election or otherwise).

[Amerika]

NObama should go back to the space-planet X when it arrives in 2012

at least mexicans can be deported without the earth being destroyed!

[Kimra]

You've set a new record for scaring off new members and making sure there's no intelligent posts.

Are you kidding? Ed's scared off new members far quicker than that before! Shame on you for doubting his powers.

Also, wasn't he reading and replying to the posts? That seems to me that he was giving it some consideration at least. I just skipped over the whole thread out of horrified boredom. Though now I'm a tiny bit curious (because it was on the radio). What the hell does a government shut down mean? Did they turn the power off? Have they all gone home to drink champagne and whine about how nothing is happening? I understand nothing, but I want it explained to me in a very short, concise sentence or two. Nothing longer than that will be worthwhile to the writer, because I'm not gonna read it.

[smiley_cow]

Admittedly I haven't been following it that closely because the whole thing kind of pisses me off, so someone correct me if I'm leaving something important out, but this is my understanding of the situation:

Basically the Republicans want to defund planned parenthood (an organization designed to provide family planning and reproductive health services to mainly low-income women*) and environmental services and the Democrats won't. So basically the situation comes down to neither parties being able to agree, so we've got a gridlock.

Honestly this new strategy of the Republicans where they take a side on an issue (which is usually a horrible one to begin with) and refuse to allow anything to happen until they get is really starting to annoy me. They did the same thing to force the government to keep corporate tax cuts earlier this year.

*Definition stolen from CTV

[Kimra]

Oh, so it's just two parties having a tiff about spending. And here I thought it might be something important. i.e. I no longer care at all. -_-

[Kaharz]

I currently live on the outskirts of D.C.

I'm sorry. I spent almost four years in Takoma Park, it was most bored I have ever been on a regular basis. If you are in VA, I'm really, really sorry.

The US Govt shut down - from an ethical point of view

[wipes hands on greasy rag, spits out some dip] Yup, there's your problem right there. That's why your government won't run no more. You ain't got no ethics in it.

I believe the ideal for representative democratic systems is 3-5 parties. Too many parties and no one group can get enough votes together to do anything. But when you just have two parties* they have to work to hard to differentiate themselves and split the vote that eventually you just end up with stalemates until one party self-destructs. Unfortunately, when you have more than two parties, coalitions will form to secure voting blocs and eventually you will end up with just two parties. Ooooh look another political system that doesn't work very well under stress, shocking.

And this is not the first time the federal government shut down. I remember it shutting down in the winter of 1995 to 1996 when a budget could not be agreed on.

*Yes, I know there are many other parties in the US besides the dems and reps, but they don't have any real federal power

[Edminster]

yaaaay shutdown averted!


for the next six days so they can bicker over this again.

I was listening to congressman Wolf speak about the budget crisis earlier today on WTOP and goddamn he is the slimiest man I've heard in recent memory. Every time a caller asked him a direct and simple question he deliberately avoided answering it because the direct and simple answer would make him look bad. Example:
"Congressman Wolf, which side has added riders to this bill that are causing such controversy?"
"Well, historically it's both sides that add riders to bills, I remember back in the seventies there were bla bla evade bla ba"

I ended up looking him up when I got home, and he's a real winner:

• Against ENDA on the grounds that it would destroy religious freedom
• Believes abortions should be illegal
• Voted to make the USAPATRIOT act permanent

There are a couple more but I just don't want to think of this man anymore.