Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby LordRetard » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:20 am

smiley_cow wrote:I think part of the problem is nine time out of ten, the word 'girl' for an adult woman isn't accurate. I know you'll probably argue with me over this, because you see language as always changing, but I think people should make more of an effort to be more accurate with their language.

I will definitely argue with you over this. In a hundred years "girl" might refer to any woman without suggesting their age at all. We could have another word in its place. What is the difference? Language is as language is used.* It's like when we were talking about feminism... Of course feminism might not be the most "accurate" word, but can't we use it anyway? It's not like anyone gets seriously confused that isn't Ahmet. Really, when is language inaccurate? Only when the actual meaning is misconstrued, which is what you have done here. It's a strange position but one might even suggest that it's more the fault of the interpreter who gets the wrong message when a fully fluent speaker says something in good faith (note: I don't believe this at all, inasmuch as it doesn't make any sense and there are plenty of counterexamples, but I thought I would bring it up as an idea). Certainly I have only myself to blame when I mishear someone else's words.
smiley_cow wrote:And if we are to take what someone is saying looking just at the words they chose and not guess at what they probably meant, when the word 'girl' is used, it does insinuate that they are not talking about a fully able adult. Even though that's not usually what they meant to say, it is still what they said.

This is where semantics comes into play. You're never listening for the literal** meaning of what they say. There's way more to language than the most literal interpretation. This whole idea seems pretty questionable to me... I've said a lot of things that I didn't mean to say, and I'd hate anyone to hold it against me when they know what I really mean. It's a mistake, sure, and it's my fault, but can there be said that there is any malice or intent behind it? If I call someone a girl, unthinkingly, I am not suggesting that they are not fully able. Not even close. That's something that you're getting out of it that's not really there.

*I repeated this mantra at a meeting for my linguistics conference, and everyone laughed at me... But whatever, if I'm going to be serious about things then I have to take it as true, even with my personal reservations against it. I just thought "guys! This is what we do! None of us are going to get real jobs so get used to it now!"
**This is okay, right? I don't normally use "literal" in a non-literal sense. In any case, I'm not a big fan of hyperbole anyway.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Cirtur » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:02 am

smiley_cow wrote:his is nothing, I have a 20 minute rant on how people shouldn't use the word 'literally' as an hyperbole.


But that's a real thing!
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Asherian » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:25 am

mountainmage wrote:Simpsons Zach did it!


Now that is some shirt material right there.

Also I love how on page 4 there's this great serious conversation of language/female's being 'people' now and Cirtur's utterly ignored interspaced comments. Absolutely beauty that.

As far as the topic goes, I'm pro both more Astasia posting more on the forum, and a thread dedicated to lesbian sex. Or other crazed controversial topics as she so loves to bring up. They at the very least, do spawn some crazy derails.

Plus switch to country life, its way better then farmville, and not just cause your plants don't rot if real life comes up.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby smiley_cow » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:56 pm

LordRetard wrote:A bunch of stuff


I'd argue that even though people's meanings can be clear sometimes they should still really be more aware of what they're saying. Sometimes it's just something like misusing the word literally* but language also reflects society, and it can be a tool for keeping the status quo,** the example that comes to mind of course being some people's annoying habit of calling things 'gay'. Now they have no idea that that is a homophobic slur, they've heard other people use the word to say that something was stupid, and so they're doing it to. Now someone who is gay hears a description of what they are as being synonymous for stupid, it gets internalized. The phrase, 'He jewed me,' or 'he gyped me'*** really are slurs, and promote stereotypes, even if a lot of people who use the phrase don't realise it. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

So yes, language is changing, I realise that. But what people are saying now, still has meaning now, and people should at the very least be aware of what it is they are saying. At least that's how I see it.

*I mean if someone says 'It's literally raining cats and dogs outside,' that phrase means that there are actually cats and dogs falling from the sky. Maybe that's not what you mean, but it is what you said. Now maybe I understood your meaning, but someone later could easily say, 'There were literally thousands of people at this event.' And I have no idea if there were actually thousands of people or a few hundred and he's exaggerating. Thus my annoyance.

**Obviously this pretty strong for 'girl'/'women', and I am in no way insinuating someone is sexist just for misusing those terms. I'm sure I've done it myself a few times.

***Because we have very few Roma people on this continent, this one isn't so big, but one time someone did say it to one of my history profs during class and he got really uncomfortable and didn't seem to be sure what to say. Eventually he settled with 'that's a problematic term' and moved one. It made me giggle because I'm a horrible person.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby LordRetard » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:50 am

What can I say? I don't really agree. At this point there's not much to go forward with, because you say "it makes a difference" and I say "it doesn't." I say a lot of offensive things but I have trouble discerning someone's orientation, religion, race, etc. just by looking at them (this has gotten me into serious trouble). Well maybe that's just me but nothing really occurs to me like "gays are stupid", I've never really seen anything that would lead me to believe that even though I've heard plenty of people go "that's so gay". Can't explain it! Oh well.

smiley_cow wrote:Because we have very few Roma people on this continent, this one isn't so big, but one time someone did say it to one of my history profs during class and he got really uncomfortable and didn't seem to be sure what to say. Eventually he settled with 'that's a problematic term' and moved one. It made me giggle because I'm a horrible person.

I just wanted to say that even though you say "Roma" because you think respected member of society is a disparaging term, you should know that Roma aren't the only nomadic peoples*. (and on yet another tangent, apparently there's a growing Roma community where I work. Super neat!) There's a similar problem with Eskimos; because many people consider that it is pejorative (due to an incorrect etymology), people don't like to use the word, but unfortunately there's no actual grouping that lines up with "certain northern indigenous groups in North America". Some anthropologists and linguists still use the term Eskimo because it's very convenient. There are a lot of places up north where people call themselves Eskimos, particularly to the west.

INCIDENTALLY this reminds me of the meeting I went to on Thursday for the linguistics thing I'm doing. We were talking about keynote speakers and someone goes, "yes, we're looking for, how do I say this politically correctly, someone who's been around for a long time..." Someone gets annoyed and says "someone young and someone old, I'm too tired for this." Then the original person says, "yeah, because I mean the older people might not even be around for that much longer!" Later she corrected herself and said that they might be retiring soon.

*My Opa may have belonged to some group of "travellers", actually. He spoke every language from the region and he collected shiny objects. QUIT SUBJUGATING MY PEOPLE
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Euclidthegreek » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:57 am

LordRetard wrote:INCIDENTALLY this reminds me of the meeting I went to on Thursday for the linguistics thing I'm doing. We were talking about keynote speakers and someone goes, "yes, we're looking for, how do I say this politically correctly, someone who's been around for a long time..."
Sorry to derail an interesting discussion about language, but what ever happened with the linguistics t-shirts?

Anyway, continue the discussion.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby LordRetard » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:04 am

One of the other guys is working on the design. I kinda wanted to bring up the "cunning linguists" idea again but I sissied out. I hope he does do something cool, though, 'cause I'd like to get a T-shirt and fuck if I'm gonna wear one that blows.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Euclidthegreek » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:17 am

LordRetard wrote:I hope he does do something cool, though, 'cause I'd like to get a T-shirt and fuck if I'm gonna wear one that blows.
You do know that people usually do those things naked, right. And I don't know if you partner would be interested if you're wearing a shitty t-shirt. (Unless of course you plan to fuck the t-shirt).

Just sayin'.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby LordRetard » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:24 am

I plan to fuck my T-shirt hard in spite of your ridiculous comments.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby smiley_cow » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:00 am

LordRetard wrote:What can I say? I don't really agree.


Yeah, I think at this point we might be best off to just agree to disagree. I understand your position, especially about PC going too far sometimes, and to a point I agree; I still think there's a place for it, though, sometimes.

I just wanted to say that even though you say "Roma" because you think respected member of society is a disparaging term, you should know that Roma aren't the only nomadic peoples*.


Actually I used the term 'Roma' because G ypsy has a word filter on it. ;)

I know respected member of society is politically incorrect too, but I am going to be honest and I say I really know very little about the nomadic peoples of Europe.


There's a similar problem with Eskimos; because many people consider that it is pejorative (due to an incorrect etymology), people don't like to use the word, but unfortunately there's no actual grouping that lines up with "certain northern indigenous groups in North America". Some anthropologists and linguists still use the term Eskimo because it's very convenient. There are a lot of places up north where people call themselves Eskimos, particularly to the west.


Poor Yupik never get nothin'. I always thought the word 'Eskimo' as similar to the word 'Indian'. People who don't know a thing about it tend to find it a lot more offensive than the people actually being called this. Fun fact: I never even knew 'Eskimo' was supposed to be considered derogatory until I read it once in a Batman comic. I think I was 16 at the time.
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Re: Do you want a thread about AHMET sex?

Postby AHMETxRock » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:29 pm

I just had really bad experiences with feminists, and I do think the meaning of the word should be important. I think LR is taking a fatalist's interpretation. I mean, we all know what maddam means, right? And we know that when the cowboys went around calling people ma'am it was slang, and now if you call someone ma'am they'll think you are being far too proper or something. There are people who don't want to be called Mr. or Miss. because it makes them feel too formal.

Instead of taking a defeatist stance, claiming in 100 years when I'm dead people won't be arguing about it anymore, we should actively take steps to fix it, like in 1984.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby LordRetard » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:01 pm

Everyone calls me fatalist/defeatist. What is that about? It's not really the same thing as determinism, and moreover it sounds like an excuse to disregard what I say. It's like going around and saying "oh don't take that guy seriously, he's Kantianist." Really bizarre, when I'm talking more about my own ideas than anything.
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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Edminster » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:06 pm

Fuck Kantianists.

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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby Cirtur » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:48 pm

FUCK YOU EVERYTHING IS MADE OF WATER

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Re: Do you want a thread about lesbian sex?

Postby AHMETxRock » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:04 am

I was, to an extend, disregarding your arguement. Let me give you an example of a scenario. My teacher is a nun, and every story she picked is to give us a little sermon in class. So one statement she gives is that nurses are not allowed to give out tylenol or advil, but they can give out condoms and stuff.

Except that from a medical point of view, tylenol and advil are given to you when you are sick, while condoms and birth control pills are preventative medicine practices. Nurses are not qualified to address every individual in the school with these problems, but people see tylenol as a minor thing, and criticize it.

Forget that if a person's headache is from overdosing on caffeine, taking the headache pills that commonly have caffiene as a pick me up to make you think you feel better would only make things worse.

In that example, there is a mistaken idea of the principal at stake. The nun obviously sees sex as a sin, but is not qualified to comment on the medical aspect. She is stupid in this regard, possibly causing more harm than good for not addressing the truth of the matter.

I would relate this criticism to you, but rather than attack you when I don't have a firm grasp of your view which sucks I simply wish for you to explain your justification. Like, language does constantly evolve, but that by itself is not a justification for rappers being allowed to say things like "skeet-skeet-skeet" "gol' diggah" or any of the other things they make up. If language, written and spoken, is our primary form of communication and conveying ideas, I would say it is important.
I would say a language should be allowed to flourish, evolve, diversify, and even die out depending on what is needed, not be restricted. Still, I think that while different people will have different opinions on what is right and wrong, the integrity of the language does need to be protected. Just like businesses must be forced not to sell us meat from diseased cows or plants with toxic chemicals, so must language be kept in a form in which it's primary objective, to express concepts and ideas, as easily as possible.
So what is your take on this?
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