Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

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Re: Latest Comic Discussion 2: This time, it's personal.

Postby AHMETxRock » Sat May 14, 2011 3:30 am

Yeah so it is pretty sucky to kill low leveled people. I don't know the reward system.

I play Runescape (hold the laughter, I know okay?) and you can swap servers easily. There was a wilderness danger level, where the further into the wild you went, the greater a difference in combat level you could be attacked. This seems like a more fair system.
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Re: Latest Comic Discussion 2: This time, it's personal.

Postby Gangler » Sat May 14, 2011 3:34 am

Except that he's yet to provide a legitimate reason why it's sucky to kill low level players. Like I've been saying. It's part of the experience. You learn from it. You utilize your character in new ways and play the game from a different angle. It's half the reason you play on a player killing server. What's the problem?
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Re: Latest Comic Discussion 2: This time, it's personal.

Postby AHMETxRock » Sat May 14, 2011 3:40 am

MMORPG's appeal is RPG with community. The player vs player aspect must be entertaining from the perspective of a videogame, not an adherance to realism.

Fighting other people is definately more fun than killing 10 wolves. Working together to take down a tough boss is one way to play, and obviously pvp is a different way. This is just bullying.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Gangler » Sat May 14, 2011 3:43 am

It's not bullying because they are not defenseless and have entered into a setting where they will be hunted. It's fun because you learn to defend yourself against a vastly superior adversary, are opposed by greater intelligence than pve, and as a whole adds a layer of depth to the game previously lacking.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby GUTCHUCKER » Sat May 14, 2011 3:55 am

In wow you might enter a relatively fair player killing system at maybe level ~38-42 and then 58 and above. Most world pvp is some kind of an ambush, so you'll be fucked if you aren't deliberately looking for people to kill. If you are, have fun! At any other level (>10) the only enemy players you are likely to meet are either seeking lowbies to kill or just passing through and will kill you just for the hell of it.
Oh yeah, if you're leveling for the first time nearly every enemy you see will be more powerful than you because they are wearing bind on account items which can be bought by their higher level characters and passed down.
Also, world pvp is nothing like battleground or arena since wow pvp isn't balanced for 1v1, so your character would hardly be any less useful as a result >.>

Gangler wrote:Except that he's yet to provide a legitimate reason why it's sucky to kill low level players. Like I've been saying. It's part of the experience. You learn from it. You utilize your character in new ways and play the game from a different angle. It's half the reason you play on a player killing server. What's the problem?

I have said:
>It sucks
>It isn't fun for either party
>You don't learn anything because you die instantly
>It can be impossible to see it coming
>You will be mocked for asking for help
>You can't defend yourself from somebody you don't see until it's too late

I don't see how stupid jargon like "different angle" and "utilise" apply to being corpse camped by some dickhead, the only real solution is to go jump on another character and do something else, or change servers and miss out on tangling with enemies your own level. And if "hide from the menace in the sky" is what counts as a different angle, then I don't like your idea of geometry. They are defenceless. They can't go invis because higher levels can see you anyway. They can't run because their adversary is literally 4 times faster and can fly. They can't hide behind a rock because nameplates show up behind objects and everything is plain to see while hovering above. It doesn't add depth to the game, it's just being an asshole. PvP doesn't have to be against people 70 levels below you.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Gangler » Sat May 14, 2011 4:00 am

Since you seem to be having trouble grasping this, allow me to lay out what you learn from this experience piece by piece. First thing you learn is to look up. People are swooping from above so it's good to keep an eye on the sky. Second thing you learn is what your class's options are for retreat. Which moves can buy you an extra second to get out of there. Which items should be kept handy for last minute teleportation. Third thing you learn is the range of the spells and attacks most likely to be used to kill you instantly. Exactly how much distance you need to keep from each respective class. Fourth thing you learn is how to identify each class by sight, thus furthering your ability to understand which threat you are responding to. Finally, over the course of this you should have learned what the most common hunting spots for PKers are, who are the most notorious pkers (and what their individual habits are), and how to avoid the most dangerous locations and times. Once you have all these things, you should be able to defend yourself against a far superior force.

Not to even mention how one can abuse the landscape to manipulate visibility and the social aspect of mmos which works to reinforce the value and power of friends and allies. For christs sake, just fucking learn to play the game. This isn't a complex science. You have an objective or obstacle, it's your job to figure out how to accomplish and surpass it. Why are you even playing if you don't want to do that? Thought you'd just walk into a player killing server and not get player killed?
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby GUTCHUCKER » Sat May 14, 2011 4:11 am

Nobody looks up, ever. Not even at level 85. I still abuse this to kill people.
You constantly use your class' options to retreat in world pve.
No items are handy for last minute teleportation.
The range of all spells varies with how laggy you are and is impossible to predict. 30-40yd in perfect conditions which never occur.
If they see you, you are fucked.
I'll give you the 'by sight' one, but that doesn't work well in griefing because most of them are death knights. Generally you identify players by the abilities they use against you (since appearance varies by gear) or by hovering your fucking mouse over them, genius.
There are no notorious hunting spots, times, players or habits. It's about as predictable as lightning out of a clear sky. The best way you could deal with this is to avoid stranglethorn vale, one of the most fun zones to level in... That's about it.
Your friends can't help you because if they're there, they are the same level as you and die too, or
I'm on a pvp server because that's where my brother and all of my friends are and because I like killing people. All of the characters I play now are level 85. Why do you keep twisting this to make it seem like I'm the one being ganked?
Edit: Oh, right. Because you're a dickhead.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby AHMETxRock » Sat May 14, 2011 4:12 am

If the fact you need to pay cash to get out of the server wasn't there I'd fully support that, Gangler, I would. I get that it's a pvp server. It's still dickish. We all have to adapt and cope to the scenario. The fact is that it still sucks. Stepping on ants because you can.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Edminster » Sat May 14, 2011 4:31 am

AHMETxRock wrote:If the fact you need to pay cash to get out of the server wasn't there I'd fully support that, Gangler, I would. I get that it's a pvp server. It's still dickish. We all have to adapt and cope to the scenario. The fact is that it still sucks. Stepping on ants because you can.

What you're missing is that before you roll up a character you have to choose what kind of server you want to be on, and on RP servers you can't get PKed.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Gangler » Sat May 14, 2011 4:34 am

GUTCHUCKER wrote:Nobody looks up, ever. Not even at level 85. I still abuse this to kill people.

They should. That's why the keep getting killed.
GUTCHUCKER wrote:You constantly use your class' options to retreat in world pve.

Lower stakes. They don't chase you as far. Different methods apply to players than mobs. For example, any move which would obscure visibility is good, and stuns become much more valuable. Not to mention that mobs are generally slower or equal speed to you, and likely lack any particular moves or spells which would aid in chasing.
GUTCHUCKER wrote:No items are handy for last minute teleportation.

WoW admittedly isn't my most familiar mmo, but I'm quite sure there are hearthstones which can be used every half hour without a need to even buy new ones, and iirc the inscription tradeskill can produce a scroll of recall from a fairly early level. Last I head they recharge even quicker. If you're a magician you get your first teleport around level twenty I'm quite sure. I would be surprised to find out there weren't more options for those who seek them out.
GUTCHUCKER wrote:The range of all spells varies with how laggy you are and is impossible to predict. 30-40yd in perfect conditions which never occur.

That is just plain ridiculous. A terribly grievous design flaw, or a terribly grievous hardware deficit on your part. Either way, it still allows for a rough estimation.

GUTCHUCKER wrote:If they see you, you are fucked.

Don't let them see you. Like I said, teleportaion is your best bet once they spot you.

GUTCHUCKER wrote:I'll give you the 'by sight' one, but that doesn't work well in griefing because most of them are death knights. Generally you identify players by the abilities they use against you (since appearance varies by gear) or by hovering your fucking mouse over them, genius.

Once again, wow isn't my most familiar mmo. Even so, if it's that easy to figure out the class and if it's that consistent that just works in your favor even moreso.

GUTCHUCKER wrote:There are no notorious hunting spots, times, players or habits. It's about as predictable as lightning out of a clear sky. The best way you could deal with this is to avoid stranglethorn vale, one of the most fun zones to level in... That's about it.

I would hazard a guess that the most common low level hunting spots, anywhere where lowbies gather en masse, would be the most likely places for high level pkers to hunt. If you don't start seeing names repeat then you're probably not paying enough attention. If almost no one hunts there, that's your best bet.

GUTCHUCKER wrote:Your friends can't help you because if they're there, they are the same level as you and die too, or

They obviously won't prevent the immediate death, but if there's a repeat offender and you've worked your way into the right guild, you can convince a higher level player to pk him for a while and send a message. He'll most likely find an easier target. He could also end up calling in friends of his own resulting in an inter-guild conflict, which can be fun as well.

GUTCHUCKER wrote:I'm on a pvp server because that's where my brother and all of my friends are and because I like killing people. All of the characters I play now are level 85. Why do you keep twisting this to make it seem like I'm the one being ganked?
Edit: Oh, right. Because you're a dickhead.

I keep assuming you're getting ganked because you keep whining about how much it sucks to get ganked. If you're such a high level then you probably worked your way through all of this. You must have had some amount of fun if you worked your way up to the top, which makes it even more puzzling that you're so opposed to this.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby DonRetrasado » Sat May 14, 2011 4:49 am

GUTCHUCKER wrote:>It isn't fun for either party

This is empirically false.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby GUTCHUCKER » Sat May 14, 2011 4:53 am

Ed's missing the bit where earlier we said it's fun to pvp at your own level, and your friends/family who you want to play with may be on a pvp server.
You also might not know what griefing is like on said pvp server when you make your character and spend hours leveling it.
Man, people are too distracted to look up all the time. When you're looking up, you're not observing your surroundings e.g. the monster which is beating on you at the time.
You can't line of sight pve mobs, they run slightly faster than you and if they hit you in the back you are slowed. Many mobs have abilities which make it difficult or impossible to escape. Also, you lose durability on your items if you are killed by a mob but not by a player, costing your money. Higher stakes. Stuns don't last long enough to escape. I already said invisibility doesn't work. You're trying to lecture me on this shit and you don't even play WoW?
Hearthing takes too long and is more inconvenient than dying. It also breaks on attack/stun. If they see you, it's already too late, like I said.
The range thing is no design flaw, it's to do with server ping. It's due to the servers all being half a world away for most of the people on my server coupled with dodgy isp bullshit. The rough estimation doesn't do you a lot of help.
Okay, the sight one - nevermind the whole 'you don't see them coming and they're faster than you' thing then, we'll just throw that out the window then, shall we? If you were viewing every vantage point well enough not to miss someone it'd be similar to hopping into a tumble dryer. The best you could hope for is "oh fuck there's someone flying above me" then insta death.
You don't see names repeat because it's rarely one person consistently doing it. That is, unless it's the same Classy Lady 5 times in an hour.
Generally when you call for help from someone higher up the ganker will be long gone... Or waiting for them to leave, which I have seen done many times. Classes like rogues are almost ungankable, and warriors, for instance, might end up killing several of your 85 friends at the same time.

And I'm not whining, you fucking narcissistic prick. In case you hadn't noticed, the fact that being ganked sucks is my point. I'm advocating a viewpoint; something which requires empathy, which you seem to have none of. I'm judging this by the way you seem to think making people unhappy is okay because you're teaching them a lesson (an opportunity for learning which tends not to sink in since your victims are stressed). Wow, you're such an altruist.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Edminster » Sat May 14, 2011 5:00 am

GUTCHUCKER wrote:Also, you lose durability on your items if you are killed by a mob but not by a player, costing your money.

Wait, so the only thing you're out is time if you get ganked? Man, the people whinging about this really are a bunch of pantywaists.
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby GUTCHUCKER » Sat May 14, 2011 5:03 am

Yep.
Doesn't make it any less amoral to gank em tho
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Re: Please don't kill me until I kill you first.

Postby Edminster » Sat May 14, 2011 5:03 am

GUTCHUCKER wrote:Yep.
Doesn't make it any less amoral to gank em tho

Finally you agree that it's not evil! Our work here is done.
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