[2011-Oct-09] Microneurontarians

[UnclGhost]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2393

So, do these ranch animals photosynthesize or what? If this comic takes place in a universe that has the same laws of thermodynamics as us, you'd have to cultivate much, much more plant matter to get the amount of energy out of the livestock that you'd get from just eating plant matter. You'd have the deaths of the livestock plus many times the amount of small animals you'd kill otherwise on your hands.

Maybe nitpicky, but nonetheless...

[DonRetrasado]

I see you're one of them.

[ma2canada]

I totally thought this was going to be a cannibalism joke.

[Kimra]

Cannibalism would make more sense. Koala tastes like crap.

[JayDGee]

Koala's are only cute because they are stoned 24/7 if they run out of eucalyptus then you'll see them for what they really are. Natures psychopaths with eerily human fingerprints. Will take CSI New South Wales weeks to solve the crime.

[Eisbreaker]

Conscious animals eat each other all the damn time.
That is natural.
Humans are not above nature, humans are part of nature.
Consequently, everything we make is also a part of nature, even technology, since a bird's nest or a beaver dam is also considered technology and yet is still a part of nature.

That means that even if I were to travel to Antarctica via trebuchet, find a polar bear, chop said bear's head off with a gasoline-powered chainsaw, and went on to consume its head after deep-roasting it with misc. condiments and a bit of Tabasco sauce, it would still be a completely natural event.

The conclusion is that vegetarians who refuse to eat animals on the grounds that they're conscious beings, or that eating them en-masse through farming is wrong (since some ants farm as well), think that they're better that the animals they're trying to save. They're not. The polar bear would do the same to me if it had the means to do it (and wasn't afraid of heights).

[GUTCHUCKER]

Number of neurons =/= intelligence.

[Pierce]

Zach, there's much you could learn about animal rights

Firstly, a vegetarian claiming he "doesn't like the idea of killing conscious beings for food" would be no different from a omnivore saying the same thing. What does that guy thinks happens when his cows stop making milk or they bore male calves? Slaughterhouse, veal. What does he think happens to the hens when they stop making eggs or what happens to the male eggs from the hen hatchery? Slaughter house, grinder or trash bags. So if he had any interest in not killing sentient beings, he would at the very least be a vegan.

As one already pointed out, your second panel is bad science. Biology 101 shows that 50% of the energy consumed is lost each time one goes up the food chain through heat loss, reproduction and movement. It takes four acres of grain to feed an omnivore. It takes only one to feed a vegan. Furthermore, where exactly does the data that "plant cultivation kills lots of small animals" come from? You say ranching destroys a smaller number of animals, but we kill 56 billion animals per year. That's not even including all the small rodents we kill in animal testing, which I'm sure is a huge number also.

Furthermore, can you see the different between incidentally killing a person and purposefully enslaving and slaughtering a person merely for our pleasure? We have power plants that release carcinogens and people get cancer, yet we still produce power. Miners die in coal mines and offshore oil rigs, yet we still use coal and oil. So we cannot avoid all harm, but veganism certainly does the least harm and that's completely different from enslaving something from the day it was born just so we can entertain our sense of learned taste.

Eis, what exactly does carnivores eating other animals have to do with what we do? We're not carnivores, we're omnivores. We don't need to kill other animals to survive, they do. We kill for pleasure, they kill for sustenance.

What does "nature" have to do with ethics? Sexual dimorphism is "natural," but does that mean sexism is acceptable? If humans aren't "above nature," are we allowed to rape, murder, and steal with impunity? After all, that's "part of nature."

Gutchucker, that reminds me of something else. How smart something is is irrelevant to why we treat something as property. For example, people with mental retardation may be far less intelligent than dolphins or apes, but regardless of how undeveloped a human brain is, we never treat that person like property. We would never slaughter them or use them for animal testing. Yet we test on primates all the time because they're "not human." The only important consideration is whether or not an animal has sentience, or it's own interests.

For more information visit,
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

[a waffle iron]

Polar bears don't live in Antarctica, Eisbreaker.

[Gangler]

What are these guys trying to do? They should just call a professional.

[Kimra]

I like me some tasty cow meat. If god didn't want us to eat them, he wouldn't have made them sooo sooo tasty.

[Sgore]

Pierce, you make a lot of good and very interesting points in your post, though I honestly don't think Zach was trying to put together a fully cohesive and accurate argument regarding the state of current eating options for humans.

I think he was just trying to make a silly comic that ended with bad news for fat Koalas.

For all I know, he might already agree with you...or just really hate fat Koalas. It could be either of these things.

[Oldrac the Chitinous]

For more information visit,
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

"Hey everyone, you're all contemptible barbarians!

If you want to learn more about why I hate all of you, click here!"

[Eisbreaker]

We're not carnivores, we're omnivores.

Speak for yourself.

We aren't herbivores either. By this logic I could decide to eat meat exclusively since I'm not very fond of animals in general but absolutely adore my potted cacti, that I am sure have feelings too.

Pierce, I'm going to start eating twice as much meat to make sure that your share of murder does not go undevoured. It is for the greater balance.
I urge everyone else to adopt a vegan of their own as well, together we can make a difference.

What does "nature" have to do with ethics?

Not much, I was preemptively arguing against the point that farming animals is an affront to nature or somesuch since I see that point raised often in these types of discussions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying killing animals is a-ok, but I am too apathetic and pessimistic to do anything about it, and not self-righteous enough to preach. Also I like me a good steak.

[smiley_cow]

The conclusion is that vegetarians who refuse to eat animals on the grounds that they're conscious beings, or that eating them en-masse through farming is wrong (since some ants farm as well), think that they're better that the animals they're trying to save. They're not.

Personally I'd argue if someone really is uncomfortable with the idea of eating a conscious animal, than it's their life. And people have to be comfortable with their choices. Yeah, animals eat each other all the time, yeah people eating animals is perfectly natural and normal, and people shouldn't begrudge other people who eat meat. But since you can be quite healthy on a vegetarian diet (and under the right circumstances, a vegan one too) then what's wrong with it? Of course preaching and moral superiority is annoying as hell, but that's not a requirement to being a vegetarian.

Also I think the issue people have with farming is less the idea of farming itself and more the tactics that modern day farms, especially factory farms, use (At least from a lot of the people I've talked to). The conditions the animals are raised in on factory farms are horrible.* Also between superbugs** and being some of the worst pollutants out there,*** I can see why people don't want to support the meat industry. Of course you can offset this better by supporting more ethical meat, such as buying locally and researching where your meat is coming from. In fact, I'd argue supporting good meat is doing more to help the problem then giving up meat entirely, but I can't say I blame a vegetarian who stopped eating meat in order to stop supporting factory farms.

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