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SMBC Comics Forum • View topic - [2017-12-08] Healthcare

[2017-12-08] Healthcare

Blame Quintushalls for this.

Moderators: NeatNit, Kimra

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby JosieQ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 pm

Explain your statement is what the question mark means. Explain how Snodgrass's setup showing communism is evil shows he's a socialist.
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Nino » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:30 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby JosieQ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:22 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Nino » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:30 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby JosieQ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:19 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:28 pm

Nicci is right about the concept of charity, it should be given when somebody has plenty, but often in reality that scene would have ended with the father saying "No, and that's final" and trying to justify it by saying "I do need a wagon loader, not a man with a bad back. If I hired every man with starving children I would not be able to pay for you, my daughter, to have food to eat and clothes to wear. If those children need to eat they can come to my workhouse and they can work extra hours to sustain their invalid father."

He would be wrong, he would be quite wealthy already, and able to do a bit of charity, but he would not. That is what happens over and over again in real life, and that is something that happens in any society.

But in Nicci's example, the daughter imploring her father worked. Sometimes prosperous capitalists do engage in an act of philanthropy.

In the USSR and in China during their 20th century socialist and communist era, famines occurred and the people there starved to death by the millions. I think another inherent problem in communism and socialism is that the concept of charity is replaced by the concept of taking from all to give to all, and when everyone has less and things are in desperation they forget to be charitable and rely too much on government rationing and bread lines, which only go so far.

Contrast with the USA's great depression. People went poor, broke, homeless, and some starved, but they did not starve in the millions and the whole country did not starve in such great extremes. Part of that was from charity, people lose money but some of them were willing to lose more to keep people from starving to death, times were hard but many people in the US made it through. Another part of that was from human kindness, which I think we all feel to some degree on this forum no matter which side we are on in the debate.

After reading Ayn Rand's books I don't think she would let the ten children starve. Her deal is more to do with promoting exceptionalism and the individual, as a means to benefit society more than the concept of collectivism and the group, which in her philosophy actually drags a society down by smearing the most productive and talented people out of a sense of collective jealousy. Think about how many people you've heard talk shit about a public figure, celebrity, or role model you admire and you'll understand where she's coming from.

She uses fictional characters like the capitalist steel company owner, the talented architect, the musician, and the inventor. She makes them the heroes in her stories, and to her those people figure out how to produce a lot of goods and services, make art beautiful, make music wonderful, and advance technology to the next stage. A post-scarcity society would be impossible if we dragged down those people, and by listening to mob rule and the voices of the many, there would in reality be many many voices that slander those people out of jealousy, out of hate, and all while self-righteously proclaiming that they are good people. She calls them the mediocre. She stepped on a lot of people's toes by saying these things.

As for capitalism/socialism/communism stealing or being evil, those types of society all need to reach a margin of revenue in order to be sustainable. For example, in a business. A capitalist, socialist, or communist has to come along first and decide it is worth it to build a business, hire workers, buy materials, and put in a significant amount of their own money for nothing at first.

A worker has to be paid their wages.

The capitalist underpays them quite a bit compared to their productivity. He can't go too low only on the minimum wage allowed by law and the rates of his competitors. He may decide to pay his best worker a higher amount so that they don't quit and join another company. The margin left he uses to keep the business running, buying materials, fixing machines, paying the rent on land if he doesn't own it. His customers expect cheap, quality, goods and services, and he lowers the prices to compete. But sometimes he pulls a sneaky trick and convinces the customers to pay more for his product. The rest of the profit he pockets as a return to his investment and to make even more money, he may be motivated by a lot of things, wealth, fame, a big house, a beautiful wife, the respect of his peers. If the business fails, he loses his investment, and depending on how much money he has left he may fail on the rest of those as well by going completely broke.

A socialist pays their employee a fairer wage compared to their productivity, and undercuts it only on a paper thin margin. By rule of law she may or may not be allowed to go much lower, but she can still go a bit higher if a certain worker is doing well. She has enough to pay her workers, pay the bills, the electricity, and the computers and machines keep running, even though they are getting kind of old. Something needs to change for her to afford to replace them, maybe if she listens to her new engineer her product will do well and disrupt the market. Her customers save up for her product because they need it, and it is quite costly to them. When she goes home she has a pretty nice apartment, a small family, enough to get by. Most of what she makes goes to taxes. She works a hard, 60+ hour work week, a lot of mental work goes into running her business. If she fails she may lose her investment as well, or the government might bail her out if her business is too important to the nation. But she won't go poor, she is a talented, skillful, a survivor. She'll just have to squeeze into a smaller apartment, and hopefully find another job.

A communist pays their employee the wage required by law. He can go no lower or much higher, and his workers have virtually no choice but to stay at his company for a certain amount of hours each day. Sometimes he doesn't have much work for the white collar workers to do so he lets them wander around town while counting them on the clock. But the laborers are needed on the clock, and sometimes much, much, longer. They look tired, they are falling asleep on their lunch breaks, and he is feeling sorry for them, but the quota has to be met or the government will be hanging him out to dry. His customers spend a majority of their whole months' wages to pay for his goods and services, but they have no choice because they need it. When he goes home he has a big house already, lots of food, and lots of perks provided to him. His father was a party leader after all, and they expect a lot from him. If he fails and loses his business a lot of people will be disappointed in him.

There are issues and benefits to each system, and none of them are perfect. Well-read Freemasons know that Karl Marx admitted as much in his pamphlets he wrote that socialism is supposed to lead to communism, and communism was not meant to sustain a nation, but to destroy it, and from all the chaos and upheaval birth a fourth, new kind of system, in order to achieve utopia. He died before he specified what that utopia system would be like, and many equate communism to the utopia by mistake.

Be civil, rational, and make an effort to be unemotional when debating this topic. The lives of billions of people worldwide ride on where we go with this, many people's own personal lives are at stake. It is easy to get heated in an argument, to get overly emotional, and to insult people. It is very hard to try to think of things from different people's points of views, to think critically, and to be fair to the opposing argument. But if we keep a degree of civility and rationality, while still leveling well-deserved critiques at serious issues, which do involve the lives of many many people, we will be able to reach new ideas and compromises sooner rather than later. Perhaps from those debates and the spread of information thereafter, someday someone will build reasonable solutions to our problems.

As for the poorer person from a few pages back, I'm really concerned for you. Have you thought about starting a crowdfunding page to fix your car? I've seen people start those for all sorts of things like dental work and recovery from assault. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to do that in comparison. If you happen to be in the United States, you should be able to shop around for lower rates soon. Medicare enrollment is on oct 15th. Involuntary healthcare was supposed to pay for people like you for you to get back on your feet, not cause you such financial and emotional hardship. I really do not understand how the same people who claim to care about poor, starving children, could then laugh in your face and say such biting words to you. Children are valued because of their innocence. People forget they grow into adults, too, and lose empathy for their fellow adults.
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby JosieQ » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:06 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Astrogirl » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:37 pm

crogression? !
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Astrogirl » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:54 pm

crogression? !
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby JosieQ » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:59 pm

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:24 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:49 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:25 am

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Justabystander » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:01 pm

Umm this meandering debate about whether forcing people to buy insurance is proper and good is imo ridiculous. Of course it is both.

You are a human being, you are alive. Thus you have a liability. You might at any point keel over sick, and start dying. Now, society, with streets and buildings - don't want dead people littering the place, nor do they want dying people littering the place. You have a liability, since you are alive. You have to cover this liability - and society have a Right(tm) to demand you cover it. it is, after all, towards society you have it.

Now, some societies in the world take this at minimum value, they locate your ruin of a body, pick it up and dump it someplace outside of town. Minimal expence, but an expence nonetheless. Should be covered by payments you did, while alive. These societies are usually not organized enough to actually manage those claims, but in theory. More successful societies have increased the effort spent on people - they take them to ER's and try to patch them together. Still more successful societies have dug further into the root causes and found that total utility lost would be less if people went to the doctor some time before they keeled over in the street - so they claim your liability should start there. Bold claim, it can and is argued against - but still in tune with previous argumentation. And thus, the claim is lawful, but one might argue about the size of the liability.

Some societies (the most successful ones, with extremely few exceptions (the single exception being the US of A - in the top list of places peope are happy existing in) - they say oh fak it, handling this through liability and insurance just becomes a pyramid scheme for lawyers and consultants, lets just pay for it all and accept the consequences of that - a very expensive state operated enterprise that is only adequate at handling peoples illnesses but at least we don't have to keep making laws to close loopholes in a pyramid scheme.

Now, statistics alone make it very hard to argue against that having a single payer system is the solution with highest utility. Look at the gini list and compare against how many have single payer system. Sure, correlation and causuality is a matter to discuss - but I would find it hard, were I to try to wring out a proof for the counter-hypothesis - having a single payer system decreases the utility of that society, when data looks like it does.
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Justabystander » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:03 pm

*braino (a typo with the brain) above: I said gini list, but I meant world happiness report.
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