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SMBC Comics Forum • View topic - [2017-12-08] Healthcare

[2017-12-08] Healthcare

Blame Quintushalls for this.

Moderators: NeatNit, Kimra

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Sizlak Jones » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:31 pm

We are spending about $5.6 billion in our province for core health services and infrastructure annually. 38% of the money our government spends each year goes to health care services (about 25% goes to education, about 9% to social services)

This is about $5,000.00 per person. However, since this is allocated out of government spending, it is actually weighted on an individual basis from personal contributions to the government coffers. About half of government revenues are from taxes. Individual and corporate taxes make up about 2/3rds of taxes, while sales taxes make up the other third. So it is tough to say on a personal basis how much your healthcare is costing you as an individual. For some people, they are paying almost nothing for healthcare (if they pay no income taxes, their cost of healthcare is only 38% of their annual sales taxes, I suppose).

There is certainly a lot to attack about the single-payer healthcare system we have in Canadia. However, despite the fact that, as a lawyer, I am going to pay a disproportionate amount of taxes (and therefore other people's healthcare costs), I would still rather have our system than the patchwork of systems you employ in the US.
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 am

Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:08 am

Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby zbbrox » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:23 pm

zbbrox
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby zbbrox » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:25 pm

zbbrox
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Sizlak Jones » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:51 pm

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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:34 am

Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:31 am

Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby zbbrox » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:45 pm

Guest,

I'm sorry, but you seem to have some basic misunderstandings about the economics of healthcare.

First, when health insurance is provided by the government, health care costs go down, not up. Your idea that with "free" health care providers will start charging more is exactly backwards. What happens now is that providers negotiate reimbursement rates with individual insurers, allowing them to pick and choose only those that give favorable rates. Government health insurance has monopsony power -- they cover tens or hundreds of millions of people and so providers have a strong incentive to attract them and so charge luck lower reimbursement rates.

Taken to an extreme -- as sometimes happens with Medicaid -- this can lead to providers fleeing the market. But Medicare, for example, finds the happy medium where essentially every provider accepts it, but it's also dramatically cheaper than private insurance.

And, of course, what's even worse is having no insurance. If you have no insurance, providers charge dramatically higher prices than they do to insurance. When you hear about thousand-dollar bags of saline and shit like that, you're hearing the price that's charged on the bill -- a price insurance companies never actually pay because they have bargaining power that individuals don't. Meanwhile, providers are in a position to charge individuals as much money as they possibly can, both simply because they can do so (people are obviously extremely incentivized to pay whatever it costs to be healthy, and often literally have no choice in the matter as they're being carried away in an ambulance) and because already high prices mean they're are high rates of medical default for the uninsured and they need to make up the money somewhere.

So what you want is a system where everyone is insured (what we're trying to accomplish now), or, even better, single-payer, where everyone is insured by the government and fair prices can be set by negotiation (as happens with Medicare currently).

Now, another thing I want to point out is that when we talk about small business owners, we are in fact primarily talking about the upper-middle and upper classes. Particularly because Zach is referring to relatively successful small business owners -- these are generally people with incomes far above the national median (60k per household). In fact, because we're specifically talking about people who make too much money for their premiums to be capped by the ACA, we know they make substantially more than that -- a family of four has to make at least 90k not to have a premium cap.

So, no, the complaints here are not about the poor or the working class, they're about people in the middle class and higher who are unfortunately left out of the protections being granted currently to those who make less. But this is not the worst problem to have! There are working people who don't make enough to qualify for subsidies because the ACA intended then to be covered by Medicaid, but who can't get Medicaid because their governors rejected expansion. There are poor people who don't have the resources to navigate the health insurance process even now we're requiring it. There are still people whose medical debt is crushing them despite having insurance.

And, again, there are tens of millions of hard working people who get their insurance via the exchanges or Medicaid expansion who are in danger of losing that coverage of Republicans repeal the ACA.

So, seriously, being concerned first and foremost with people like Zach is shameful. And more than that, if you want to fix things, the solution is really clear: single-payer.
zbbrox
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Astrogirl » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:19 pm

crogression? !
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so close, yet so far
 
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Astrogirl » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:51 pm

ACA was signed 2010. The last major provisions came into law in 2014. So at the latest the price increases should have happened then if it were really the ACA causing it. So why did it only happen in 2016? Because the Republicans defunded the to sabotage the ACA, spike health insurance rates and make people vote for Trump.

Why healthcare is expensive in the US:
- Because there are so many poor uninsured people (even after the introduction of ACA still millions). Their only medical care is the emergency room. The most expensive medical care that is available. No access to preventive care and check-ups. Only going to the doctor when illnesses that could have been treated much better early on have already advanced. [US-specific problem]
- Before ACA and now after the mandate is removed: Healthy people can opt out of paying health insurance. [US-specific problem]
- Lots of old people. [Problem in common with all industrial/developed countries]
- Many many insurances, thus high administrative costs. [Problem in common with e.g. Germany, different from the cheap single-payer solutions of Canadia and the UK and I guess a bunch of other countries where I don't know the system]
- Pharmaceutical companies are robbers. [Problem in common with Germany, not sure how exactly other countries handle this, might be the same everywhere.]
- Fancy new machines like CTs and MRTs. [Problem somewhat in common with other industrialized countries, but the US might have the most or newest.]
- Large areas with low population density, need higher number of doctors per inhabitant to stay within a couple of hours reach. [Problem in common with Canadia, but their healthcare system still manages to be cheap.]

Not reasons why healthcare is expensive in the US:
- ACA
- Obesity

But I don't particularly care if health insurance rates go up for healthy adults with high income as long as this means that poor people get access to healthcare. Healthcare is a goddamn human right.
crogression? !
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AussieGuest » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:05 pm

AussieGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AussieGuest » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:26 pm

Wait, is it even fair to contrast the USA with first word countries? Should I be digging out information about other third world nations, since that would put it on a more level field? (o~o)
AussieGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Sizlak Jones » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:31 pm

Sizlak Jones
 
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Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Kit. » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:43 pm

Kit.
 
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