[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4505: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4507: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4508: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4509: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
SMBC Comics Forum • View topic - [2017-12-08] Healthcare

[2017-12-08] Healthcare

Blame Quintushalls for this.

Moderators: NeatNit, Kimra

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:25 am

zbbrox, The single-payer health insurance system will not be enough to solve all our problems. There are not enough doctors/ambulances/hospitals to cover those millions of people with actual health care even if they do technically get insured. If lower-middle class are not being discussed here, I would also like to discuss.

"They can't afford insurance that costs more than rent, they'll have to choose between closing up shop or simply going without" - from the "healthcare" smbc comic.

"These aren't borderline shut-in artists like us. They're the guy who runs that used book store or the lady who planned your wedding" - 2nd to last panel

The claim in the comic is that it costs these people now $31,200 a year, which is $2600 a month, compared to the previous 13,000 a year, 1000 a month. For a 60k a year household that is half of their income. For a 90k a year household that would be a little more than a third. Consider that they are running small businesses, and yeah, it becomes a choice between having healthcare, $30,000, cost of living $24,000, and running a small business, which varies, but could be around $30,000 . You can only have 2 of the 3, and losing your small business means losing that income in the first place, losing the cost of living is not gonna happen. Their only choice is to skip out on the health insurance and find other ways.

I am not concerned first and foremost with people like Zach and friends, I am not in the same class, the same race, the same state, or the same part of the political spectrum as them. But even in the comic they speak not out of concern for themselves but out of concern for others, they claim to be able to get by fine either way. The "shame, shame, shame" attitude is not helping anyone and I would like to find a helpful solution with a rational discussion.
Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby zbbrox » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:54 am

zbbrox
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AussieGuest » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:56 am

AussieGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:31 am

If it weren't a small business owner and just a family of four earning a steady income of 60,000-98,000 I'd say they are okay, but when you put hardship upon small business owners I worry that it may have repercussions for people on a lower income level than them. I live in a high population, high immigrant area and there are tons of small business owners. You cut off 50-30% of a small business owner's income and that might be 3-5 or 1-3 workers that they have to let go. Worse yet the business fails as a result and all their workers are without jobs. Apply that on a massive scale and that is tons of people without jobs, plus tons of business lost in general in the area that it affects. People will have to commute further/move away. Not even the mega-corporations can sustain a community.

I wanted to talk about the working class, things are hard for them when they have to work overtime just to get by/ work 2-3 different part time jobs, but if they are let go/have difficulty finding jobs near their area at all, that is even worse. A person who LOSES their small business could find themselves in debt, have no other skills in demand in their area, and be pretty much downgraded to the working class in their older years, filling in even more unskilled labor jobs which we only need so much of. And it becomes a downward spiral where when that next young worker should have saved up enough money/ made a loan/ or otherwise reached a point where they would have started their own business later on in years and hired MORE workers, they don't.

Hospitals serving primarily medicare patients in a high-population area do have long lines. There are better clinics, private ones, family practitioners, specialists, etc. that accept the next level up of discounted health insurance that don't experience the long wait times. What aussieguest said just now was reasonable, but I wasn't arguing against more people being able to have healthcare. I would like to clarify that I would just like it if there ARE simply more hospitals/doctors to help those people, and not with inadequate care, and everyone capable of work should pay something or contribute something to have it, no one should have it for free, unless they are disabled/elderly/a child. Lowering the cost to a fair rate is agreeable, I would prefer that to be achieved with free market competition and growth in the private sector.

Always remember that no matter how you move around the numbers, healthcare never is "free". It costs a person's labor at the very least. To demand free labor is slavery.

Some of the high costs are ludicrous, I agree, but some of them are high in reflection of resources we don't have a lot of but do need a lot of. When we pour more and more of our country's income into the government instead of growing the private sector, that government is going to decide where to purchase those resources from and what quality. I don't know about you but at least half of the government do not represent me at any one time. I am skeptical of trusting the government with too much money and therefore too much power. Those who are powerless will have no choice but to accept what they are given. With the private sector at least some of that purchasing power is in the hands of people.

Those people, experiencing hardship now? I doubt that many of them inherited their wealth like the super wealthy you are so disdainful of. Keep feeling that way about the wealthy, but not necessarily all the rich. The rich person is like the sports player who earns a million dollars a year, the wealthy is the person who signs their check. Separate those in your mind.

Some of those people worked hard, started out with less, but were responsible enough with their money and intelligent enough or talented enough to maintain a small business. That kind of person is a bit uncommon, most people just want to get by. I don't want to punish them, and you shouldn't want to either. To handicap them is to handicap the nation that allows so much potential in upward social mobility. That is part of the reason why we are free, but not all.

I don't have anything against any of you guys. A productive discussion/debate should just have different views. If we all agreed with the same things, and still have problems, we would never find out-of the box thinking or solutions to those problems. zbbrox, you've probably been around for longer than I've been alive and have much more life experience. The reason I argue isn't because of any anger or personal feelings on my part, I just want to discuss things to help us all throw out some ideas, and the knowledge in your heads are valuable.
Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest2 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:14 am

Guest2
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Kit. » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:24 am

Kit.
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:22 am

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:20 am

guest2, Yes, same person, and now I have to say that was extremely deceptively misquoted and taken out of context. Neither of them are racist, as you are trying to imply. They both were talking about other subjects at the time:

---
Dinesh D'Souza is Indian-American, that was from his 1995 book "The End of Racism":

"Is racism a Western idea? Yes. Contrary to popular impression, racism is not universal. Indeed there are no clear examples of racism anywhere in the world before the year 1500 AD. Racism arose in the West during the modern era as a rational and eventually scientific ideology to explain large differences in civilization development that could not be explained by environment. Thus, racism originated not in ignorance and fear but as part of an enlightened enterprise of intellectual discovery. The good news is that since racism had a beginning, it is conceivable that it may have an end."

https://books.google.com/books?id=QNV3X ... y.&f=false

Taken out of context it sounds like he is saying racism is a good thing. He is not. He would like to see an end to racism, and that quote was a part of an observation of how soon in human history racism began to appear rather than the praise of racism.

---
As for Stefan Molyneux, he runs a blog, a podcast, and a youtube channel about philosophy. His youtube channel has 700k subscribers, he is canadian, and he claims to have had a close friend and mentor of his die on the waiting list for health care under a single payer system.

"But so what? What’s the problem with shaking things up? Why is it so difficult for people to break out of unhealthy or unproductive relationships?

The answer is, in my view, because mental health has always been defined in social terms – a combination of sustained relationships and productive work. In other words, a popular Auschwitz guard with a long marriage is the very definition of mental health. Moral considerations do not form the basis of mental heath – a compliant Nazi is considered more ‘healthy’ than an outcast one. This form of ‘social ethics’ is largely due to the Jewish influence over psychology. It would be hard for a Jew to say that individual morality is more important than social acceptance, since to be ‘Jewish’ is to automatically place the authority of the group over the conscience of the individual – just as Christians, socialists, Muslims and soldiers do."
- http://freedomain.blogspot.com/2005/04/ ... tupid.html

When you cut out the context of, "Why is it so difficult for people to break out of unhealthy or unproductive relationships?" You might think he is making an antisemitic quote. He is not. He is saying, socially, people define a mentally healthy person as a person who can sustain long relationships and do productive work. Well a nazi guard with a long marriage fulfills those conditions, is he mentally healthy? No, that's ridiculous right? So in the field of psychology, people should consider morality and ethics when it comes to mental health.

Molyneux's mother is jewish. In Molyneux's opinion, jewish psychologists and jewish tradition have had a huge influence over the field of psychology, and that jewish people, on average, score higher on IQ test scores. He is very pro-jew, so it is the opposite of what you may have thought originally.
---

I don't completely blame you for misquoting them though, guest2. You may have gotten the quotes from other people, out of context, as well. If you ever have time, check them out.
Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AssueGuest » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:26 am

AssueGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest2 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:47 pm

Guest2
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Kit. » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:31 pm

Kit.
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:22 am

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AussieGuest » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:37 pm

AussieGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:58 am

Now you're acting like I am arguing against the concept of health insurance itself. I am not. Those people and the gap will be covered once affordable private insurance is available.

Look, as long as the amount of hospitals and doctors increase in the US, I will be satisfied. Right now we need some growth and innovation on that front and I truly believe that the free market can achieve that. We have been handicapped by strict regulations, high taxes, and many other changes put in the recent years.

As for guest2's comments I think they are very misleading and exaggerated. Relying on identity politics to disparage someone's character rather than addressing the persons arguements will only get you so far. His alleged involvement of outing gay students supposedly happened in the 1970s and it comes from one mans claim. He himself denies it and has said that people have equal rights under the bill of rights and constitution. I can accept the felony as a criticism of a persons character but i believe he paid for his crime of giving more money individually than was legally allowed.

I can accept aussieguests criticism of Molyneux as well it is at least based on some listening and discussion of him at the very least. You could say that from your own opinion but note that he also backs up his reasoning with information anyone can check up on online about the importance of a childs development "0-5". I wouldn't say he is blaming all women but rather placing some reasonable responsibility on them.

If the people in virginia could afford it yeah I would love it if they could start a privately owned insurance company or even a medical clinic or hospital by pooling funds together. It would even benefit their community and return their investment over time. They live next to the best hospital in the state but cannot afford it when they are covering their insurance plus many other people's at that cost.

I don't think that overtaxing or overcharge is fair on small business owners. Perhaps if you have to have it your way consider a compromise where small business owners get a break in taxes or healthcare by a certain percentage while someone of the same income level don't.

I am not racist, misogynist, or uncaring as you are trying to imply. Also, I am a woman and not white. I would like my privacy to be respected otherwise.

I care about the US and western civilization in general. What has been done so far is not perfect but its better than many others. Improve it by making more businesses, being charitable, and innovating more. You are all very reasonable and intelligent people, you should understand my reasoning.
Guest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby AussieGuest » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 am

AussieGuest
 

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Astrogirl » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:08 am

crogression? !
User avatar
Astrogirl
so close, yet so far
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:51 am

Re: [2017-12-08] Healthcare

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:08 am

Aussieguest, no, simply because a completely privatized defense force wouldn't be a national defense force by definition. Theoretically a mercenary/private military force could get to that level but that's not what we want or need, and I'm not arguing anti-government or no government either. Just don't overdo it.

The free market + low taxes will allow a nation to grow. Say you take in 39% in taxes for all corporations, pretty much what we were doing before when you count both federal and state, then your rival nation/state takes in 25% for taxes. Yeah you're taking in a lot for a while but over the years more of those corporations + new corporations open in your rival state than you have. You're missing out in the long run. You lower those taxes just a bit, not even having to equal your rival considering that your nation is "better" and you're on a equal footing and not significantly handicapped on that front. Over the years what you didn't take in taxes gets reinvested into growth, and you're not hurt significantly because you draw in most of your federal revenue from income tax anyway.

Astrogirl, with Canadia one of the only countries the doctors per inhabitants number is better than it's still not good enough. The comparison looks like it's not bad on the front but the reality is the USA has more population than Canadia, more health problems, and Canadia still has issues with its single payer system like long waiting lists for very significant operations. Canadia also has a highly merit-based system for immigration, a immigrant has to prove the ability to work, hold a job/and or pursuit of education.

Instead of seeing it as 2.5 doctors as not that bad I would rather aim for the 4. I agree with making medical studies affordable but I think that free is unwise, unless you make it highly merit-based, which is what we already have with certain scholarships. Free without merit-based could mean you are replacing each potentially good doctor's education with 4-5 student failures and actually losing out on a doctor for the amount of funding that you spent.

We don't have the laxest regulations because small businesses pay about 5k-7k per worker per year to follow federal regulations. I'm not saying no to regulations either, some regulations have to stay, they are common sense and needed, like food, health, and worker safety amongst others. But when we get as far as a small business owner having to spend that much something is going wrong there.

We had the highest corporate tax (35% federal-39% when you count the state) before recent changes when you count the additional state tax on corporate, and we have the 21st highest income tax.

I'm not saying don't have your single payer system, I am saying if you have to have it? Consider all those things (small businesses, corporations, competition with other nations, number of doctors) and make sure we are covered on that front. I'm not totally against you guys there and I don't get a bit of the aggressiveness here, I hope you guys had a merry christmas and a happy new year. I suppose it comes with the argument, but realize it is not needed. We are all having a talk to make things better for everyone, I hope?
Guest
 

PreviousNext

Return to Latest Comic Discussion 3: Revenge of the Son of Latest Comic Discussion 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests